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29/09/2002 00:27:35   Colin Foster   I have an entry on the LEJOG in December.
I need to prove to the organisers that V4's were rallied as lightweights ie no roof lining / no rear seat / no carpets etc. My car runs completey stripped to save on weight.
Does anyone have any photos / mag articles etc which shows cars being rallied like this prior to 1975??  
06/04/2003 04:26:57   Bruce Beauvais   For what it is worth- SAAB USA sold a 96 in 70/71 that was delivered without soundproofing or undercoating. It was sold a basis for a competion car. It did have a full interior however.  
24/08/2003 09:33:32   John   Colin

Did you get much of a response about rally 96's. I am looking for similar information including when the factory began using the V4


28/08/2003 13:53:15   Alistair   V4s were run in group I and group II so would have had to conform to whatever the regs said about interior trim. Can't believe they didn't rip out all the interior & the CCC article by Paul Darlington from mid-70s recommends this.

Factory was certainly using the V4 in competition from 67 - the year the RAC was cancelled due to Foot & Mouth and they won the RAC in 68 (Simo Lampinen). Not sure if they were used in 66, which is the launch year. Is there a specific reason why you need to know when they started using it?  
28/08/2003 16:40:45   Richard   I can find out which rally the Saab V4 was first used by the works, at the moment all I can remember was that it won and the car was 110bhp with Eric at the wheel.
All the shots of the works cars have door panel trim and roof lining. Probably could take it out and stick something not as flamable in its place without any problems from the organises.  
28/08/2003 16:45:03   Richard   Oh, I dont think they rallied with the rear seats in. If you can not get around this then a bit of sideways thought should see you with a set of old seats pulled apart filled with light foam attached to an alloy sheet instead of the wooden base.  
29/08/2003 07:47:48   Richard   correction:- First rally for the works team was the 67 Swedish and Simo finished (no pun)2nd.
Maybe a private entry in the Monty of that year would have been possible.

13/11/2003 16:14:52   Colin   I've just noted some comments re light weight V4's. I found it almost impossible to find out any information re lightweight V4's. Someone from Sweden sent me a little information showing the 2 factory cars which were entered as group 5 in the 1972 1000 Lakes Rally. Also in the book "From 2 stroke to turbo" there is a photo of Simo on the bonnet of his 1972 1000 lakes car, and if you scrutinise the photo carefully "there's no back seat". I also received some infromation from SAAB, but it was mainly circumstantial and not suitable for verifaction at scrutineering. Alistair - PD's article in CCC was from the 80's and was not based on any specific documents, yes we all know club competitors stripped their cars, but no contemporaneous photos of stripped cars can be found.
By the way on the 1972 1000 Lakes, both the Swedish team and the Finns used fibreglass rear wings, bonnets, and boot lids, I do have the photos of their group 5 cars.  
15/11/2003 00:50:14   Alistair   Actually I think PD's article was reprinted in the 80s from an earlier issue (c. 78/79 IIRC), though I may be wrong. Hadn't realised they ran in Gp V though...  
17/11/2003 12:44:25   Richard   The 1970's cars did not run interior. As the rules allowed you to run without, so you would have to be a twit to run with a rear seat. I see you have moved from stage events to the long distance events and this is the kind of pointless dribble you get at these events.
The very early V4's ran with only one hoop if that as a cage and full interior, but the later cars did not run with an interior. Try ringing up Imp speed (see web page) and ask for Barry Palmer, I think you may find his Saab past useful. Surely the Saab museum can sort this out and provide photo's of cars of the period
I disagree with the HRCR and others on their policy of running interior trim and limiting what the competitor can do with the roll cage for the sake of originallity.
I feel this could leave them open, limiting the amount of safety a competitor see fit and the amount that could have been used is compromising safety.
24/11/2003 14:45:55   Colin   Richard
I contacted the SAAB museum last year, I received a lecture from them on not carefully considering the homol rules prior to my build. I explained that I have always run 96's as light weight, and asked for any information on Group 5 cars, they did search their archives but came up with very little. They agreed that my car was similar to their group 5's but without contemporary documentation it counted for little. The problem of lack of photographic evidence keeps returning to haunt me.

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY 1970's DOCUMENTATION on the use of the C & T crossover inlet manifold?????  
24/11/2003 16:49:41   Richard   Try Keiron Patterson (classic performance) or Dave Clibbery. They used CT inlet manifolds and even managed to run them in the Historic class until the organises became wise. I think it should only be used in post historic, then you will have the twin carb rule to get round on road events (if you do get around this can you tell me as my other car runs a CT and it would be nice to run it in local historic road events for a bit of fun).
There is a guy in Finland with some ex-Finish team cars
I will dig out his page.
27/11/2003 11:10:51   Colin   Richard
I contacted Keiron and he has been most helpful re CT manifold. Thanks for the suggestion.
Re twin carb rule; I believe the only way to compete on a road rally style event with twin carbs, would be LE JOG as HERO apply for a dispensation for twin carbs as it is a reliability trial.  
27/11/2003 12:53:21   Richard   A few events apply for a dispensation, Colin Wallace usually has to because of the paint scheme of his car. I will have a look through my video collection featuring Saabs and see if I can find footage of a V4 without interior.  
01/12/2003 08:03:00   Richard   All the videos I have from the post-Historic era show the Swedish and the Fins using full interior trim, rear seats and shelf along with side trim.
What carbs are you using on the CT, at the moment I have yet to run my 1815 engine as the car is not quite finished and I have Weber 40's (need some 45's) down choked to 35mm to run the engine in on. It would be great if you have any set up data for the 40's, as at the moment they are set to what I think seems right.  
01/12/2003 09:19:40   Colin   All the videos I've seen are the same, although a guy in Finland has just sent me some photos of Tapio Rainio's '74 Artic Rally car without seats. Very useful for the future.
Unfortunately I do not have any details for 40's I've only ever run the C & T manifold on 45's. Are you planning on doing any events in the near future?  
01/12/2003 12:28:27   Richard   I will be hillclimbing this car probably at local events. I run Andrew Street's old 96 V4 as well and should be out on the Robin Hood historic rally on March 6-7th. This is a good event, they had 90+ Historic, post and classics last year. The event starts with 5 night stages on Saturday night, great!!  
03/03/2006 23:26:22   John Wood (Woody)   Hi Colin. I need to dig out the rally report for the '72 1000 Lakes, but if memory serves only Simo's car ran in Grp5. His boot lid was made of such thin fibreglass it flapped about like paper. I would suggest you have a look at the RAC/FIA regulations of the period. I still have a "Blue" book somewhere from 1972, which gives the Appendix J regs for car builds under Group 2, which can then be used with the SAAB FIA papers. I have never seen any printed regs for Grp 5, and would deduce that if you presented a car for scrutineeering that did not conform to Grp1 of Grp2 then it would run under Grp 5. The regulations were constantly changing and Grp2 really only applied at international level. "Club" cars had a greater flexibility with their preparation provided they conformed to Appendix J. Saab, due to a regulation change, were able to run without seats and carpets from 1973. But they had to maintain a rear bulkhead between the fuel tank and the cockpit. They actually had problems on the 1973 RAC, as they presented their cars with the fuel tank sealed from the boot area. The "Scrutes" required that the boot area be sealed with Aluminium and sealant so if the tank ruptured fuel could not get through to the cockpit/crew.
The C&T manifold was developed between 1967 and 1970, according to a "HOT CAR" write-up I have in my archive. It was this article which fuelled my desire to acquire a set from Jeff Powell at Conversions & Tuning which I finally did in 1973, as the Works set was too expensive. Jeff located an extended distributor through his agents in Sweden. The linkage set up came from Saab Sport & Rally. Later in 1973, the Sport & Rally Register was set up so that competitors with international class licences could purchase items at 45% discount. I have not studied HRCR regs, but as Richard suggests Dave Clibbery is a good source as he struggled to interpet the regs when he was building his car in the early 90s. In the end his interpretation was commendable.  
04/03/2006 00:26:51   John   Colin, tried to email you. I have details of settings for 40 DCOEs for use on a 1531cc motor. If they are of use, let me know.  
06/03/2006 17:57:06   Alex   Can't these sh*tfaces with their spam be removed from the threads?  
02/06/2006 12:49:24   Woody   see also Bengt's pages for article in Swedish of the Competitions Dept using the C&T manifold while the Moose Horn was being developed. Good pic of Bo Swaner holding C/T set next to Engineer with Works set.  
05/06/2006 12:46:01   Richard   John can you email any details of grp 5 and the ct set up through. The HRCR threw out the ct manifold for the pre 1968 class and I wish to build a car up for that class.

05/06/2006 18:11:49   Woody   Will dig out what I have.  
05/07/2006 22:35:39   John Wood (Woody)   Richard,
Did you receive the info I sent you?
Any comments?  
03/08/2006 12:19:40   Colin Foster   Wow... suprised to see this thread pop up again.

If anyone has any contemporaneous info on the CT set up, I'd appreciate it for my files. Talking of which I've just spent 2 hours searching the house and my computer files for some phots sent to me by someone from Finland in 2002. They showed Stig on the 72 1000 Lakes competing in Grp 5, with fibreglass wings identical to mine, more than enough to satisfy the Scrut on LE JOG. I still have the photos of Tapio Rainios car on the 74 Artic with Snow Shovel in the boot et al. I've also missed placed the photos of Simos car which as Woody pointed out was also Group 5. If you look carefully at the photo of Simo's victory in 2 Stroke to Turbo you can just see there is no back seat. Only reason I noticed this was that the origonal photo was in the batch I've lost and was alot clearer than the book shot. Simo's car used the more common flared arches as opposed to Stig's more rectangualar styled arches, which I have.

If anyone has photos of either of the cars out on the 72 1000 Lakes I'd appreciate being able to re-stock my files AGAIN!  

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