|29/05/2005 18:23:33||Tom||Hi, i have a spare engine and gearbox that i would like to rebuild, as the ones in my saab are pretty ropey! is there any source on the net that goes in to detail on dismanteling and rebuilding? Also i would like to uprate the engine, whats the best way to do this with out sacrificing reliabilty or fuel consumption? would like around 100bhp if thats possible. Also what can i do to strengthen the gearbox? and if poss get higher ratio's? I am new to all this and any help would be greatly appeciated.|
|29/05/2005 18:24:22||Tom||Hi, i have a spare engine and gearbox that i would like to rebuild, as the ones in my saab are pretty ropey! is there any source on the net that goes in to detail on dismanteling and rebuilding? Also i would like to uprate the engine, whats the best way to do this with out sacrificing reliabilty or fuel consumption? would like around 100bhp if thats possible. Also what can i do to strengthen the gearbox? and if poss get higher ratio's? I am new to all this and any help would be greatly appeciated.|
|30/05/2005 11:39:20||jonny||Senor, I have to disagree with the comment regarding fuel, my 96 which must be about 100bhp at least is the most economical of the 5 or 6 96's I have owned, on my recent trip to Sweden I was getting at least 25% better economy than my mates 1500 V4, if you improve the efficiency of an engine through better breathing, balancing etc. and then drive the same, it should surely always be more economical?|
|30/05/2005 18:37:59||Senor Burt||You're not using the full 100bhp then are you?
Tuning=getting air/fuel into the engine/exhaust out of the engine faster. If you drive it hard (IE use all the power) you're going to use more fuel.
If you only use the same amount of power as a standard engine, you will use less fuel due to increased efficiency.
That's my understanding anyway. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
|31/05/2005 08:00:08||Richard||I can turn 20 odd mpg with twin 45's, but on full chat its more like 8-10mpg.
For higher ratio's a sonnet crown and pinion on a std ratio is the cheapest way to get higher ratios, try Highgate as they were looking at remanufacturing these. A good rebuilt special ratio box is going to be going up for £600-£800
|31/05/2005 09:02:57||jonny||Even when I am really ragging my car the consumption is not that bad that you would worry about it, it makes me wonder though, given SAAB's commitment to performance why they did not make the 96 motor a bit more effective from the off instead of having to spend a fortune on S & R bits|
|31/05/2005 09:53:11||Senor||For the time, the 1500 V4 was a pretty nippy engine. Later models of course had the twin-choke carb on a manifold which had previously been a S & R part.
It would have been very expensive to port out the heads on a mass production scale. A performance engine needs to be built to higher standards which again would have been too expensive with the technology of the time. Especially as the 95/96 was already a relatively expensive car. A bigger exhaust would have made the car more noisy, which it already was compared to other contemporary models.
By the time that the performance of the V4 became an issue, SAAB were concentrating on the 99. Once the 99 engine was being built by SAAB it was a lot stronger engine than the V4 and more suited to being tuned and turbo'd and it's still going strong!
|31/05/2005 10:43:41||jonny||what is happening with the 95 project? last time I was on the website it had not been updated for a while|
|31/05/2005 12:25:36||Senor Burt||Waiting for me to have enough money to throw at it. Could be a while.
I was going to get my 96 on the road, but once I discovered the number of large holes in the floor, body and sills it was starting to get expensive to buy the panels I needed.
Just bought a 900 T16S for £330 though.
|31/05/2005 12:36:31||Richard||A twin carb (weber 28/36 £40-£60 second hand) on a four stud manifold (£60-£80 second hand) , with a Kent mild/fast road cam (£90 regrind), V6 valve springs, Jetex exhaust and port the manifold to suit the heads and the heads to suit the exhaust. You might get around 80+bhp and more useful torque.Go to a rolling road and have it all set up after.|
|31/05/2005 17:29:14||bill rawles||Hi Tom.
Before you start, have a long think about what you really want the car for and why. I have spent countless hours and well over £2500 at least to achieve 100bhp wih a gearbox to match. The car still has a few niggles to sort and its been very frustrating at times. Its my hobby so I don't mind putting in the work and now that it is 99% finished it is good fun to drive BUT it can easily be out performned by countless cars that you could buy for the same money, classics and modern, and plenty that are enjoyable/interesting to drive and own as well.
I'm not trying to put you off but if you want a sports car, go and buy a sports car!! If I was starting again with my car I would keep the mechanics more or less standard and accept the car for what it is.
|31/05/2005 21:22:49||Tom||well wha ti really want to do is to rebuild the engine and gearbox so they are as good as they can be and give it a good tuning, what richard said before seems the best to do. Would it be better to convert the block to a 1700? i beleive i need a new crank etc? Atcually i am not even sure what cc the engine is! anyway of easily telling? this is a long term project and intend to complelety dismantle the engine at least! is it a good idea to strengthen the crank and con rod etc? or are they pretty reliable in standard form? thanks for all the replies they are very helpful!
|31/05/2005 21:23:35||Tom||oops, when i say as good as they can be i mean reliable!
|01/06/2005 00:14:01||Alistair||If you can get hold of a 1700 crank & pistons for reasonable money then that is the best place to start in terms of usable torque, but not cheap. The mods Rich describes will give you a bit more than 80, more like 85, that's pretty much what my old car was like, with a mild skim of the heads. It's similar to the S&R "stage 1" tuning kit.
A 1700 crank & rods with decent compression pistons & similar mods will give you another 5-10 bhp, but you will need the carb to be set up properly for the 1700 and that is reaching the limit of what a 28/36 DCD can deliver. Better to go for a more modern carb like a 32/36 DGAS or similar. To do that right, you'd be best to have the block bored & honed and buy new pistons to match, so this isn't going to be cheap.
As to why Saab didn't do more with the V4 during its life, it's more likely to be mostly because it wasn't their engine. They were bought from Ford and came as they came, I suspect for the volumes that Saab were shipping, Ford wouldn't have been interested in significant changes.
No reason to expect a mildly tuned engine (<100 bhp) to be any less reliable than standard, provided it has been built well.
|01/06/2005 00:15:47||Alistair||Oops - forgot to mention you might need a higher capacity fuel pump and worth getting an uprated oil pump (stronger pressure relief spring) if going beyond 80bhp, plus an oil cooler and a bigger or 3 core rad. And stronger engine mounts (incl. the "Mexico" mounts for the rear of the block/bellhousing ).|
|01/06/2005 07:57:40||Richard||And a uprated clutch and a rebuilt gearbox, plus timming gears, Al.
Basically below 90bhp is cheap, above it gets more expensive. If you add all the bits up for a 1700cc engine and gearbox to match, you are looking at £2500+. You will need new bearings, gaskets etc. all these bits look cheap but add up.
|01/06/2005 18:36:07||Mat||I was thinking about following the 90bhp set up suggested by motorsport sweden on their website. It doesn't mention anything about uprated clutchs or gearboxes. Is it unrealistic to have a V4 engine producing 90bhp and not carry out these extra modifications. I was looking for an everyday drivable 96 and thought from what has been suggested by previous posts that a 1700cc crank was a good way of getting extra torque, but i guess nothing is ever as simple as it looks. Whats the deal? I've got a modest budget but don't want to spend rediculous money on just the engine.|
|01/06/2005 23:14:44||Tom||I am surprised at what it would cost if u go above a certain level! i have no where near that kinda budget. Basically i think i will strip the engine down and rebuilt the internals for now at least, the engine is still running that is in my saab so no rush yet! What is the strongest and best bottom end to have? The 1700 crank with ARP bolts, scorpio con rods and V6 pistons? i may be wrong in that assumption! is that gonna be expensive as cost is a major factor too! i really want to rebuild it to an extend where i can tune it more when i can afford it! hope u can help|
|02/06/2005 07:59:07||Richard||Thats the most pactical bottom end for a 1700cc engine, but if you are not using the revs above 6000 then there is no point in the arp bolts, but I would use V6 or Scorpio rods. The 1500 crank will give a stronger bottom end due to the stroke being shorter.|
|02/06/2005 12:18:27||Richard||Your std clutch is at its limit at 90bhp and a old gear box will probably start to suffer in a couple of years time.|
|02/06/2005 13:23:49||Tom||well, i think i will just build this engine on the back burner as it were, as and when funds turn up! is there anything other than the piston and rods that is worthwhile upgrading from the scorpio engine as they are pretty easy to obtain as one unit! maybe the valve springs?|
|03/06/2005 08:00:08||Richard||The rods are cheap on there own. You only need these bits if you are going up to 6500rpm on a 1700 crank. The pinto pistons fit and come higher in the bore (need to usually machine the tops). Cast pistons are cheap new and are ok to 10-1 comp ratio.
If you go for the 1700 crank you will be also changing the rods pistons bearings, boring/honing. If you have a good 1500 when you pull it apart you may find the bearings, bores ok. That would save you several hundred pounds. For a performance cam you need V6 valve springs from the german engine, they are cheap new.
|04/06/2005 01:39:00||Tom||yeah i was planning to do the exhaust and carb and ignition to the engine already in the car, am looking out for a carb, but the exhaust is outta the question at the mo as i can't afford to spend £200-£300 in one go on the beastie yet! not til i get out of the overdraft! any way of getting a better exhaust cheaper? even second hand they arent cheap.|
|04/06/2005 17:37:15||Alex||Apart from stealing one I wouldn't know. I'd rather wait and save up the money if I were you. The exhaust is the thing to start with. The exhaust swap on the Sonett (which has a Weber DGV 32/36) convinced me of this sequence. I put a Simons on my 96 with 1700 engine and standard single Fomoco carb and the engine performance improved immediately. It revved up quicker and quieter and also when the throttle was released it went down in revs with less struggle.|
|04/06/2005 18:07:55||Tom||Well i guess i will have to convince my parents that its a worth while 20th birthday present! never mind will start saving! might try and get a carb tho, how hard is it to get a manifold? does anyone have a manifold to sell?|
|06/06/2005 18:17:35||Bart||A 32/36 DGAV Weber should fit on the standard manifold!? That's what I read everywhere on internet.
I just ordered the Simons exhaust and I'm planning to switch to a weber 32/36 on my 1700cc V4.
|06/06/2005 23:36:06||Senor Burt||If your standard manifold has 4 bolts for the carb, then yes. Only very late models had this though. Most have a two bolt mounting for a single barrel carb. 32/36 DGAV will only fit with a conversion plate which is not the same at all.|
|07/06/2005 07:50:35||Richard||If you are sticking with a 2 stud manifold then a weber 34 ich is better than a std fomoco for power up the rev band.|
|09/06/2005 08:05:34||Richard||You do need a 4 stud manifold or am adaptor plate for the 32/36. They are a carb used on ford Pinto's, so have a look in Classic Ford mag. The smaller 28/36 dcd was used on ford Anglia's to Cort GT, basically anything pre-pinto. You can get a 38/38 dgms off a v6 Granada, but parts for these are a bit harder to come by. The Dgas range is a better range of carbs than the dgms, but you will have to check bolt pcds. You are then on to the 40 dfi, which was fitted to err (someone told me Tatra used em???)and they are very hard to find, mine came off a Skoda 120S.|
|13/06/2005 10:11:13||Alistair||OK if you have a 4 bolt manifold then you are free to pick between carbs. Your best bet on jet sizes is to get it set up on a rolling road at a place that is used to doing carbs (not so many about these days I guess) - that way you can be sure you have no lean spots.
Pricing - well, how much do you want to spend?! I'd guess you're looking at £50-100??
|27/07/2005 21:41:14||Bart||I've got a 32/36 DGAV in good condition from a MG 1800cc engine with exactly the same jetting as mentioned by Alex in the above post except for the air corrector jets which are 170/160 instead of 160/170. So jetting would be ok for my 1700cc engine?
Opened up the carb to clean everything because it has been laying around for two years and discovered the pump diaphragm was not there. Probably used as spare part for another carb. So I have to buy some gaskets and a pump diaphragm. Any recommendations on addresses for getting a servicekit (I prefer The Netherlands)?
In what way can I start adjusting the Weber from sratch after the rebuild?
Thanks for your input!
|27/07/2005 21:55:56||Rens||Hallo Bart,
Here's the adress of a collector of old fords. He has a lot of carbs (50 euro) and a service kits (25 euro) he lives in belgium just across the border.
|28/07/2005 22:11:44||Alex||www.bccp.nl or Ebay US, UK or Germany|