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Clutch help please!

Printed from: SAAB V4 Forum
Topic URL: http://www.saab-v4.co.uk/speedball/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6157
Printed on: 24 Apr 2018

Topic:


Topic author: UK_Sub
Subject: Clutch help please!
Posted on: 26 Apr 2014 21:49:51
Message:

Picked up a new project today, but the clutch might need replacing...

When the clutch pedal is fully depressed it sounds like the clutch arms are catching - basically a horrible din!

Can I make any adjustments to the slave cylinder and adjustment bolt?


Cheers,

Simon

Replies:


Reply author: TTruckie
Replied on: 27 Apr 2014 08:17:12
Message:

it will be the clutch arm travelling too far forward and striking the back pressure plate and springs on the clutch cover.

You must ask why this is happeningÖ.. is the clutch friction plate and or thrust bearing worn needing the extra travel? Have some bits of the system been replaced recently and are not fully compatible (they are supposed to be the same but I have found different years have subtle differences and the tolerances are so small). Has the clutch arm become worn and the thrust bearing mounting holes become ovaled and hence needing the the arm to move further forward. I have also found that clutch arms are different shapes too!

in the short term if the clutch doesn't need to go all the way to the floor you can either do it manually of adjust the slave cylinder a little to help but it will need the engine out to investigate. If you leave it you will break something and it may well become terminal just at an inappropriate time

Good luck in your investigations


Reply author: john-saab
Replied on: 27 Apr 2014 09:21:48
Message:

worst case is that the clutch arm is bent/snapped..I have seen both. Also have taken an engine out to find a the lower thrust bearing securing pin (wire) had dropped out..put it back in and all was perfect.
I think whatever has happened it means the engine is coming out to check it over properly.

'72 95 (The Flying Banana),'72 96(Bridget),'72 96 (green one)'73 96 (Vernon),'74 95 (Veronica)


Reply author: UK_Sub
Replied on: 27 Apr 2014 09:35:23
Message:

The previous owner thought it was the mounting holes that had become ovaled.

If this turns out to be the case, is it possible to get hold of a new clutch arm?

And any recommendations on where to buy clutch parts - that will hopefully all work together (in perfect harmony)?



Reply author: melle
Replied on: 27 Apr 2014 09:57:56
Message:

Put a 12mm aluminium rod through the holes, align it (should run perfectly parallel to the pivot axis), weld up the extra space and everything should be alright. Guess new clutch arms will be extremely hard to find.

And now pictures please.

1970 96V4 "The Devil's Own V4"
1977 95V4 van conversion project
1988 900i 8V


Reply author: Andyinthegarage
Replied on: 27 Apr 2014 12:55:10
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by UK_Sub
Picked up a new project today, but the clutch might need replacing...

When the clutch pedal is fully depressed it sounds like the clutch arms are catching - basically a horrible din!


Possibly a bit late for this, but is there a pile of spacer washers behind the slave cylinder? If so and before you go taking the engine out, I suggest you remove them and re-adjust the movement at the bell housing adjuster. Give pedal a few full strokes with engine off before you start it and try again, it allows everything to settle into the right place.


Reply author: Lupo
Replied on: 27 Apr 2014 15:08:24
Message:

I have the same problem and I guess it is due to new release bearing (not anymore original) which is probably thinner as the original. I decided to take out the motor and add a small disk 3 Ė 4 mm thick to pressure plate (counterpart to release bearing). Iíll do it on May, then Iíll send the report with photos.


Reply author: melle
Replied on: 27 Apr 2014 16:46:59
Message:

You have a point there Lupo, Look at the difference:



The crappy looking one to the right is what you get nowadays from F&S, the numbers are the diameters of the axis stubs. I also measured the thickness of the bearings, but I can't find the pics.

By the way, I think it's only the housing that differs, might be worth replacing the 6007ZZ ball bearing that seems to sit inside most of them. Those cost less than a fiver, but I've never tried it myself as of yet.

1970 96V4 "The Devil's Own V4"
1977 95V4 van conversion project
1988 900i 8V


Reply author: Lupo
Replied on: 27 Apr 2014 17:18:25
Message:

Yes Melle there must be some difference, I have LUK release bearing there. which is sold as substitution also for V4s, but originally it is for AUDI. I measured the movement on slave cylinder and it shows 15 mm from base position (adjusting screw almost out) to touch the pressure plate position. The free movement has to be 4 mm, so 11 mm is excessive which corresponds 5 mm excessive gap on release bearing. Itís too much.


Reply author: melle
Replied on: 27 Apr 2014 17:24:32
Message:

I'm pretty sure F&S and LUK clutch sets are identical.

1970 96V4 "The Devil's Own V4"
1977 95V4 van conversion project
1988 900i 8V


Reply author: Lupo
Replied on: 27 Apr 2014 17:37:43
Message:

The thickness of original saab supplied bearing is 12 mm measured from centre of nipple to active surface. Can somebody check the F&S or LUK bearing?


Reply author: UK_Sub
Replied on: 27 Apr 2014 22:43:47
Message:

Looks like I do have a couple of washers behind the slave cylinder and the adjustment bolt(?)





So I should take out all the washers and give it a try, or just the ones behind the slave cylinder?



Oh and here's the project, trying to hide down the drive!



Reply author: john-saab
Replied on: 28 Apr 2014 07:21:34
Message:

Did this car come from the Bognor Regis area?

'72 95 (The Flying Banana),'72 96(Bridget),'72 96 (green one)'73 96 (Vernon),'74 95 (Veronica)


Reply author: Dirtbiker
Replied on: 28 Apr 2014 08:53:53
Message:

Come on Simon - lets see a picture of this project from the side!


Reply author: UK_Sub
Replied on: 28 Apr 2014 09:33:25
Message:

Hi John, the car is from up North, what's the one from Bognor Regis?

I'll post a side picture, once my question has been answered - how's that for an incentive ;)


Reply author: Lupo
Replied on: 28 Apr 2014 10:26:57
Message:

Hi Simon, the washers on the bolt of slave cylinder has no effect on clutch function, itís only a fixing bolt. The position of adjusting bolt is important, but if you take the washers out and you tide the bolt you worsen the situation because you push the arm more against friction. Anyhow your adjusting bolt is not correct, it has to be without head and with position fixing nut, only so you can do quickly the fine adjustment.


Reply author: Dirtbiker
Replied on: 28 Apr 2014 10:38:10
Message:

I would agree with TTruckie - release arm contacting the pressure plate. I reckon that's got to be an engine out investigation.

But, it's a new project and you want to drive it around for a bit enjoying the sunshine... How about a block of wood inside the car below the clutch pedal just the right size for the car to go into gear but without the horrible noise...?

Cheers

Gareth


Reply author: UK_Sub
Replied on: 28 Apr 2014 11:33:50
Message:

So undoing the adjustment bolt won't make any difference?


Reply author: Lupo
Replied on: 28 Apr 2014 11:59:58
Message:

If you release adjusting bolt it shift the arm back and could avoid the contact with the pressure plate but then the move of release bearing may not sufficiently press the clutch to free the disk to enable to change gears. It needs a little time to play with adjusting bolt.


Reply author: Lupo
Replied on: 28 Apr 2014 12:13:32
Message:

Donít forget to have 4 mm free movement measured on slave cylinder/release arm joint.


Reply author: Dirtbiker
Replied on: 28 Apr 2014 12:16:20
Message:

I agree with what Lupo says. IIRC with the adjusting bolt correctly adjusted there should be 4mm of free play on the arm where you can get to it through the inspection hole.
Pretty sure there is a picture of this in all the manuals but at work right now - will check later.
Cheers

Edit - looks like 4mm is correct - Lupo must have posted that while I was typing!


Reply author: Lupo
Replied on: 28 Apr 2014 12:31:10
Message:

Iíll have endoscope here end of this week, so Iíll try to make some photos inside to see whatís going on with my clutch, probably the story is identical.


Reply author: UK_Sub
Replied on: 28 Apr 2014 12:55:40
Message:

That's a cool idea - would you insert the camera where the slave cylinder arm goes or through the vent cover (removed)?

Just looked on Amazon and they're (endoscope cameras) only £20 which doesn't sound too bad...

BTW I do have about 4mm play on the end of the slave cylinder/release arm - is the play effected by the adjustment bolt? Apologies for dumb questions, I know nothing about clutches!


Reply author: Lupo
Replied on: 28 Apr 2014 13:22:49
Message:

Iíll insert it through vent Ė check opening. Once your free play is 4 mm , there is no sense to touch adjustment bolt. The problem is somewhere else. I suppose the nose of the arm (part where top bearing nipple hangs) touches the release plate mechanism. Once Iím sure of it Iíll show you my solution.


Reply author: pchristy
Replied on: 28 Apr 2014 13:35:35
Message:

This is what the adjuster should look like:



and here's the slave cylinder, though there's quite a lot in the way!



A couple of washers under the head of the bolt is fine, as long as the bolt does up tight and doesn't "bottom", but there shouldn't be any between the slave cylinder and the casting that the bolt passes through.

Check that the slave cylinder is fully retracting when the pedal is released. If its not going fully back home, then this is the equivalent of packing the slave forward, which you shouldn't do. Its probably worth putting new seals in the hydraulics whilst you're at it anyway.

Your adjuster looks bodged!

I'll scan the clutch section from the manual and get it off to you as requested, probably later today. But I think you are going to have to resign yourself to removing the engine to see clearly what is going on.....





--
Pete
"Duct tape is like the Force: It has a light side and a dark side, and it binds the Universe together!"


Reply author: UK_Sub
Replied on: 28 Apr 2014 14:14:10
Message:

Thanks for that Pete.

Anyone got a spare adjustment bolt?


Reply author: Borstlap
Replied on: 28 Apr 2014 16:39:28
Message:

The adjustment bolt is bog standard metric thread, don't recall if it is M6 or M8. Long ago when I was still young and ignorant I screwed it down way too hard and broke it. It was a bear to get the broken stump out of the gearbox casing, but replacement was dead easy.

Alex


Reply author: pchristy
Replied on: 28 Apr 2014 16:58:23
Message:

The bolt itself looks right - square head. But, I don't think it should be that far in, AND there should be a lock-nut under it rather than a pile of washers. Look at the pix of mine, and you can see that its much further out, and is locked in place with an extra nut. Something definitely not right there!

Its also worth checking that the hydraulics are working correctly, as I described. But if it was me, I'd want the engine out to see what was going on anyway!



--
Pete
"Duct tape is like the Force: It has a light side and a dark side, and it binds the Universe together!"


Reply author: UK_Sub
Replied on: 28 Apr 2014 17:19:31
Message:

I hadn't noticed it had a square head - I'll see if any adjustment helps and check the throw of the slave cylinder and take some more photos!

Thanks all, for your help. Kind of looking forward to whipping out the engine - if you call 4 hours of bending over the engine - fun!?!


Reply author: UK_Sub
Replied on: 29 Apr 2014 10:01:25
Message:

Had another look when I got home, this is where the arm sits at rest...


and then when the clutch pedal is pressed to the floor...


So I unwound the adjustment bolt to about where Derek has his...


this gave me a very light clutch pedal and I could press it to the floor without any noises, but I couldn't put it into gear. So a bit of experimenting with gradually tightening the blot gave me no noises on depression, noiseless gear changes but a very low biting point. Still some experimenting to do, but I should be able to drive it to Swedish Day!


Reply author: Derek
Replied on: 29 Apr 2014 12:08:41
Message:

Probably worth bleeding the system before you make final adjustments. It might add a little more movement to the arm and enable you to bring the bite point up a bit.
I'd guess you meant Peter not Derek.... Good luck with the new beast. You're always asking for pictures so where's yours.


Reply author: UK_Sub
Replied on: 29 Apr 2014 12:14:46
Message:

Ah yes, sorry, I did mean John (don't know why I put Derek!?!).

You're quite right about the photos, I shall makes amends forthwith...


Reply author: pchristy
Replied on: 29 Apr 2014 13:03:10
Message:

The adjustment should be correct when the "free play" is 4mm. If it isn't working with that free play, something is wrong!

--
Pete
"Duct tape is like the Force: It has a light side and a dark side, and it binds the Universe together!"


Reply author: UK_Sub
Replied on: 29 Apr 2014 13:04:53
Message:

I also meant 'Pete' not John - I'm not having a good day!


Reply author: pchristy
Replied on: 29 Apr 2014 15:41:00
Message:

That's OK - I usually get referred to as "Oi! YOU!"! Anything else is an improvement.....!

--
Pete
"Duct tape is like the Force: It has a light side and a dark side, and it binds the Universe together!"


Reply author: Woody
Replied on: 30 Apr 2014 01:24:05
Message:

Adjuster is wound fully in. Doesn't even have the lock nut. Question whether the adjuster has been cut short or the inner arm is seriously worn. As already saiid the bolt retaining the slave cylinder should have a flat washer and spring washer. No worries there.
I would remove the adjuster completely to assess its length and condition.


Reply author: UK_Sub
Replied on: 30 Apr 2014 21:45:09
Message:

Mine looks pretty similar to that...



Just need to find a suitable bolt, did someone say M10?


Reply author: Lupo
Replied on: 02 May 2014 17:02:15
Message:

Hi Simon, as I promised you to come with photos from endoscope investigation of my clutch, here it is and it shows the basic problem is oval opening in the arm of release bearing. Tomorrow Iíll continue to see the rest.


Reply author: UK_Sub
Replied on: 02 May 2014 17:18:34
Message:

That is great - thank you.

I might get an endoscope, looks like you can get them for about £20 through Amazon - what's the make/model of the one you have?


Reply author: UK_Sub
Replied on: 02 May 2014 17:23:18
Message:

Got sent this image or a repaired one...


Reply author: Lupo
Replied on: 02 May 2014 17:54:25
Message:

Endoscope type is VOLTCRAFT BS 17+, (operating probe diameter is 9 mm)it has to be connected directly to computer as it has no monitor, and I paid something like 50 £.


Reply author: Lupo
Replied on: 02 May 2014 18:13:47
Message:

I calculated the oval difference which is excessive 1,6 mm. This corresponds to 3,2 mm on slave cylinder move. As I have total excessive 11 mm on slave cylinder , I still have 7,8 mm excessive on slave cylinder or 3,9 mm on bearing, which I think is the difference of LUK bearing. Iíll see tomorrow.


Reply author: stevebod
Replied on: 07 Oct 2014 16:34:25
Message:

Just reading this thread with great interest as I have had a squeaking clutch for sometime. I also have difficulty engaging reverse particularly with the engine hot.
I thought the problem was the release bearing so I swapped in a new F&S clutch part last year but it's just the same.
What was the conclusion to this issue? Was it wear in the clutch arm? A bent arm? or wrong bearing thickness?
I'll be interested to hear the conclusion before I pull my engine out.
Cheers.


Reply author: UK_Sub
Replied on: 20 Oct 2014 11:20:09
Message:

Apologies for taking so long to get back to you, but only picked up the car on Saturday.

There were a couple of issues effecting the clutch. The first was a split gearbox mount...



this was caused by the casting on the gearbox being oversized - Graham filed it down to the same size as a normal one, so it shouldn't happen again. He also replaced the engine and gearbox steadies at the same time.

The other issue was the release arm, it had been repaired, but not very well, which resulted in the bearing pushing the clutch at an angle! This resulted in a clattering noise and vibration on the clutch pedal!

The clutch plate itself was fine, so a replacement release arm and bearing was fitted. Now all I have to get used to is all that clutch travel on the pedal (where I had about 5mm before!).

To check if your gearbox mount is OK, put the car into reverse, let out the clutch and see if the gearbox moves (usually upwards if the mount is broken).

Hope that's useful info?



Cheers,

Simon


Reply author: stevebod
Replied on: 22 Oct 2014 16:05:14
Message:

Hi Simon,
Thanks for the update.
I'm going to check that my hydraulics are OK first, since I can do that with the engine in place. But I'm pretty sure I'll end up taking the engine out to fully understand what's wrong.
I'll do the engine mount check you suggest though.
Cheers.


Reply author: deggsie
Replied on: 22 Oct 2014 19:52:42
Message:

quote:
Stevebod ... I also have difficulty engaging reverse particularly with the engine hot.

You will probably have checked this, but if not may be worth a try before you do anything drastic !
I suffered a similar problem with inability to select reverse gear especially when hot a few years ago (had to push the car back into the garage several times),
the problem was cured by 'simply' re-adjusting the gear change at the steering column .

___________________________
Saab - beyond the conventional !


Reply author: stevebod
Replied on: 23 Oct 2014 14:04:17
Message:

Guys,

Thanks for the further advice regarding the gear adjustment - I'll check that for sure, but I'm pretty sure it is a clutch drag problem I am having.

Interestingly, I spoke with Mallbrad Saab today with the intention of ordering a new release bearing for the clutch (along with some other parts I need).
We talked about the dragging clutch and the symptoms I have and Mallbrad were pretty sure one fix would be to add spacing washers between the flywheel and the pressure plate . They explained that although this wouldn't have been the case originally, it is necessary depending what clutch and flywheel combination you have. Some cars need it, others don't.

I read another thread that talked about the need to do this if the flywheel has been machined. Mine hasn't, but it does have one of the new thinner SACS release bearings in it which I guess could give similar symptoms.

So my questions are:
1) Is this a known thing amongst the forum contributors?
and
2) [a crazy idea] Can I add washers through the clutch inspection hole?
It would be a great time saver if I could try this fix without removing the engine.
I can envisage a process where I slacken all the clutch bolts off and then remove each one it turn and slip a washer down between the flywheel and pressure plate; and then tighten everything back up.
What d' ya think?
Worth a go?


Reply author: melle
Replied on: 23 Oct 2014 14:32:05
Message:

The guys at Malbrad are right, if the hexagonal plate lies below the pressure plate assembly it won't work properly. You'll have to take the engine out to shim it properly though. We're talking about 0.1-0.2mm shims, normal washers are way too thick. The reason you have to take the engine out is that you have to measure if the hexagonal plate protrudes by about 1mm and also check it for flatness.

Those Sachs release bearings are crap, see my comment on the first page of this thread: http://www.saab-v4.co.uk/speedball/topic.asp?topic_id=6157&whichpage=1

1970 96V4 "The Devil's Own V4"
1977 95V4 van conversion project
1988 900i 8V


Reply author: pchristy
Replied on: 23 Oct 2014 19:13:21
Message:

You certainly have to add spacers if you have a diaphragm clutch fitted. The diaphragm in mine also uses a different type of release bearing.

To fit a diaphragm, the flywheel needs to be machined (I guess this is what Malbrads were referring to), and that effectively prevents you reverting easily to a standard clutch.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the diaphragm parts are from a VW of some description, but I have no confirmation of this. My car had already been fitted with a diaphragm when I got it, and I'm hoping it will be a long time before I need to replace it.....!



--
Pete
"Duct tape is like the Force: It has a light side and a dark side, and it binds the Universe together!"


Reply author: stevebod
Replied on: 29 Oct 2014 09:55:44
Message:

Hi All,

A further update on my clutch issue. Sorry for hijacking the thread, but I think it is relevant to the original question.

I managed to add some 0.5mm shims between the pressure plate of the clutch and the flywheel. I did this via the inspection cover on the bell housing and it went well. I used a magnet on a stick and a mirror (and some patience).
The clutch is much, much better now.
I still need to road test it to get the engine fully warm because this is when the problem was at its worst; but I now have more of the clutch adjust screw showing, less clutch noise, later engagement when lifting the clutch pedal and a more progressive bite point.
To be honest I could probably have put thicker shims in, perhaps 0.8mm, but I didn't want to overdo it. I'll report back after a decent road test, but the early indications are that it is improved.


Reply author: UK_Sub
Replied on: 29 Oct 2014 10:25:50
Message:

Good tip there - although, as you say - a lot of patience is required too!


Reply author: melle
Replied on: 29 Oct 2014 13:39:34
Message:

Good to hear you managed to get them in!

I've just amended my previous post, I initially wrote '1.0-2.0mm shims', this should of course be '0.1-0.2mm'.

1970 96V4 "The Devil's Own V4"
1977 95V4 van conversion project
1988 900i 8V


Reply author: stevebod
Replied on: 31 Oct 2014 11:14:12
Message:

Hi All,
A final update on my shim re-fit.
After a proper road test the clutch still seems good.
Even when warm I can now engage reverse without hearing the gear mesh.
I am now convinced my clutch was dragging previously and the shims were needed to bring the normal adjustment within range of the adjuster bolt.
So if you are contemplating a similar rework - it can be done via the inspection cover if needed.
Cheers.


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