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v4admin
Forum Admin

United Kingdom
519 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2010 :  19:26:00 Show Profile Reply with Quote
On a similar subject to the plugs....

I use a reasonable quality 10W40 non-synthetic oil. Use to use Castrol GTX for years but changed somewhere along the line.

UK_Sub
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
2555 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2010 :  20:03:14 Show Profile Reply with Quote
I use Halfords Classic Motor Oil - 20W 50
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rsimps
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
1616 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2010 :  07:41:10 Show Profile Reply with Quote
I use Halfords 15/40 semi-synthetic (purple bottle), which i think is a Castrol product anyway and ZDDP additive from Burtons.
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pchristy
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
1790 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2010 :  08:30:23 Show Profile Reply with Quote
I've been using 15/40, as recommended in the handbook that came with the engine. At the last change I used Shell Helix, but it doesn't seem to hold its pressure quite so well when hot - back to GTX or Duckhams, I think!

Bit disappointing that, as "back in the day" Shell 20/50 was always reckoned to be a cracking good oil, and certainly held up better when hot than either GTX or Duckhams!

I always add a shot of Molyslip as well! (Gearbox too!)

--
Pete
"Duct tape is like the Force: It has a light side and a dark side, and it binds the Universe together!"
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john-saab
Administrator

United Kingdom
2679 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2010 :  12:29:27 Show Profile Reply with Quote
GTX if i can get it when i need it..my local motorfactors don't always have it so sometimes i buy whatever is on the shelf. I'm running cheap stuff at the moment as the engine internals were pretty grubby and i plan to change it after 500 miles...most of which i done this weekend!
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
3830 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2010 :  18:20:53 Show Profile Reply with Quote
I use whatever comes my way, which basically most of the time comes down to 15W40 from the big 200l barrels my father in law always buys. No idea what brand though. I think this is an oil for modern cars with a catalyst, so it probably would be a good idea to research this topic a bit further, since I really don't have any idea of what this does to an engine.
A bit of Moly in the gearbox is always a good idea, never used it in the engine though. Pouring black stuff in clean oil is what holds me back a bit I guess.

1970 Saab 96V4 "The Devil's Own V4"
1974 Saab 95V4
1977 Saab 95V4 van conversion project
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john wyatt
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
1031 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2010 :  20:19:10 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Careful with molyslip in the gearbox, can ruin the freewheel, not driven a v4 regularly enough in recent years to have anything meaningful to say on engine oils, hopefully that will change soon!
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pchristy
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
1790 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2010 :  21:13:32 Show Profile Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by john wyatt
Careful with molyslip in the gearbox, can ruin the freewheel, not driven a v4 regularly enough in recent years to have anything meaningful to say on engine oils, hopefully that will change soon!



Yes, I've heard that before, but all I can say is the on my original car, the 'box lasted much longer once I started adding molyslip! (The bearings originally gave up at 48,000 miles on EP80. Once I started adding moly, it did another 48,000 and was still running sweetly when I sold it!)

I asked Chris Partington about this. He was more worried about the effect "friction modifiers" might have on the synchro action than the free-wheel. It doesn't seem to bother the synchro at all, and has a "plating" action that ought to help protect the bearings - the main weak spot!

Only time will tell!

:D

--
Pete
"Duct tape is like the Force: It has a light side and a dark side, and it binds the Universe together!"
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john wyatt
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
1031 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2010 :  21:38:40 Show Profile Reply with Quote
A good friend was the transmission spe*****t for many years at the SAAB dealer in Edinburgh, he told me the addition of this was the most regularly identified cause of freewheel failure, he has kindly offered to fit a special gearset to a box with me when we both have time, I am very much looking forward to this, it is the one area of a V4 which I have not touched beyond the freewheel and selector mechanism.
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
3830 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2010 :  22:16:48 Show Profile Reply with Quote
I use Molykote A in the gearbox of my 96 and I have the impression that it is quieter and selects easier (could be placebo again ) than my 95, that does without moly at the moment. All my cars have their freewheels blocked by former owners, so no problems to be expected in that area. Plan to wake them up when the time is there though.



1970 Saab 96V4 "The Devil's Own V4"
1974 Saab 95V4
1977 Saab 95V4 van conversion project
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rsimps
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
1616 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2010 :  08:02:45 Show Profile Reply with Quote
I only use LSD oil now in gearboxes these days. Back on the engine oil subject, most modern fully synthetic oils are made for close tolerance modern engines that have harder surface coatings/treatments on moving parts. Dont believe what is writen on their web pages that their fully syntheic oil is ok for old engines. Most of the protection in oil comes from the additive pack and these are being reduced to improve emissions along with modern engine design. There is nothing wrong with the Synthetic oil as such, but it usually comes with the wrong additive pack for an old engine. I now add a ZDDP additive to my oil to make sure I have the right additive pack in the oil. I came to this conclusion after spending alot of time talking to car oil manufacturers (most of which will mis-lead you) and industrial oil suppliers (who will tell you the truth), along with research papers compairing mineral and synthetic base oils and one type of oil with different additive packs. 6 months after Castrol released advice to the federation of historic vehicles which basically backed up my own theories.
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pchristy
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
1790 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2010 :  11:24:00 Show Profile Reply with Quote
What did Castrol recommend?

And as my engine is a Vege rebuild, does it apply to this as well? (I would assume it does!)

--
Pete
"Duct tape is like the Force: It has a light side and a dark side, and it binds the Universe together!"
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rsimps
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
1616 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2010 :  12:22:04 Show Profile Reply with Quote
CASTROL CLASSIC OIL WITH ZDDP ANTI-WEAR ADDITIVE
In response to a question about oils which do not contain zinc dialkyldithiophosphate Castrol Technical Centre very kindly submitted the following article. Club editors are very welcome to reproduce it in their own newsletters but to preserve technical accuracy Castrol request that it should only be reproduced in whole.

Established in 1899, originally as C.C. Wakefield, Castrol launched their first lubricant for cars in 1906 and have been at the leading edge of lubrication technology ever since. With the introduction of low viscosity engine oils and changes to anti-wear additives in modern oils in recent years, owners of veteran, vintage and classics are asking whether modern oils are suitable for their cars.

Choosing the correct lubricant for your veteran, vintage or classic vehicle is essential to ensure peak running and maximum wear protection. The technology of older vehicle engines is very different from today's modern cars, so to assist owners, Castrol reintroduced their older brands with their 'Classic Range' in the early 1990s. These Classic oils are produced to original viscosities and importantly have retained the necessary levels of additives including anti-wear additive ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) appropriate for the technology of the engines they are designed for and to provide overall protection. The ZDDP levels are appropriate for engines that are in use or running-in, including those fitted with new or reconditioned components, where care should always be taken to follow the manufacturers' recommendations when breaking in new components such as camshafts.

ZDDP additive provides a high level of anti-wear protection, but its phosphorus content is harmful to catalytic converters and other emission equipment fitted to many modern vehicles. It has therefore been reduced in the latest specification oils, designed for engines using the latest surface hardening technology and meeting the latest emission requirements for modern vehicles. These requirements also necessitate the use of other new emission equipment friendly additives not designed for use in veteran, vintage and classic car engines.

Oil formulations required for today's modern vehicles are very different from formulations needed for older vehicles, having thinner viscosity and alternative additive technology as stated earlier, making them generally unsuitable for use in older engines. This has been done in conjunction with new vehicle manufacturers who have increased the surface hardening of engine components to receive maximum protection from the new additives. Oils for modern engines comply with the latest API ratings and are designed for modern engine technology with tight tolerances and compatibility with catalytic converters.

A car engine of old design has very different characteristics, with cork, graphite or rope seals, low pressure cog driven oil pumps, wider oil-ways with greater dependence on 'splash' and 'cling' lubrication, lower revving with lesser machine tolerances. Such widely different specifications demand totally different lubricants of thicker viscosity with appropriate additives specially included for the work they have to do.

Oils even of the same viscosity, supplied by different oil companies can have radically different formulations and thus have significantly different performance characteristics. Oil classifications are designated 'S' (for spark ignition petrol engines) and 'C' (for compression ignition diesel engines). Oil classifications for older petrol vehicles range from SA for vehicles from the turn of the last century to SH, to the late 1980s and early '90s.

• Inadequate anti-wear additive (ZDDP) and the oil film between moving parts breaks down prematurely, resulting in metal to metal contact and damage to reground or new engine components particularly on run-in.
• Inadequate detergent will result in gum and lacquer clinging to the hotter engine components.
• Too much detergent can cause a build-up of metallic ash in the combustion chambers of older engines. In older engines with traditionally high oil consumption, this will cause detonation and pinking. In older engines where the carbon has built up over a number of years the detergents can also have a scouring effect causing the carbon to flake off, blocking up oil galleries and spray jets. High levels of detergent will ‘wash’ traces of carbon from seals and gaskets, revealing oil leaks.
• Inadequate anti-oxidant and the oil will permanently thicken during high temperature motoring, with large amounts of gum and varnish clogging filters and piston rings.
• Inadequate corrosion inhibitors and engine internals become pitted with corrosion and rust from acids and water formed during combustion.
• Inadequate dispersing results in soot, wear metals and the by-products of combustion settling out in the sump to form a thick sludge that will block filters and oil ways.
• Inadequate pour point depressant and the oil ceases to flow at low temperatures, with excessive strain on the oil pump or in certain cases, oil starvation on start-up causing complete failure of the lubrication system.

For older vehicles; veteran, vintage and classic, use an oil of the correct viscosity as recommended by the vehicle manufacturer and shown in your vehicle's handbook. Where your vehicle requires a specific viscosity such as 30, 40, 50 and 20w-50, avoid using inappropriate low viscosity engine lubricants designed for modern vehicles such as 0w, 5w, 10w, 15w. Castrol's vehicle lubrication records date back beyond the turn of the last century, detailing lubricant specifications for engine oils, gear oils and greases right through to today's classics, so to find out which Castrol grade is right for a vehicle, owners can simply refer to their vehicle handbook and select that grade from Castrol's Classic range. Castrol's Classic engine oils XL30, XXL40, GP50 and XL20w-50 are formulated to the original viscosities and contain the necessary levels of ZDDP anti-wear additive to provide appropriate protection for veteran, vintage and classic engines. The range is available throughout the UK via leading car spe*****ts. For further information either telephone the Castrol Classic helpdesk on 01954 231668 or visit www.castrol.com/uk/classics.
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rsimps
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
1616 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2010 :  12:36:31 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Basically what it was designed for back in the day is probably the best oil grade. You could probably take advantage of fully synthetic oils with an additive added. You might also find out that a motorsport grade might offer extra protection from the additive pack. The problem is the sales staff talk a load of bull ****, so you will never be able to trust what they say. My advice is use a classic oil as per the manufacturers spec in a std car, it really isnt worth messing about with for the sake of 3 bhp or longer oil change intervals.
I change my oil an filter nearly every rally I do to be on the safe side, so my oil choice is not the best comparison with a car used everyday!
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rhampsheir
V4 Fanatic

United Kingdom
235 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2010 :  13:53:16 Show Profile Reply with Quote
I recently had some work done to my engine, head gasket and valve seats hardened. I asked what engine oil he put in, and he said a semi synthetic, does this mean I should also be using an anti wear additive?
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rsimps
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
1616 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2010 :  16:41:16 Show Profile Reply with Quote
I used semi synthetic for years without any problems. After looking into the oil situation, I will always put in a ZDDP additive as its impossible to know if the additive pack is ok for an old engine. Oils that are termed 'Classic' should have the right additive pack for older engines. This is a case of modern and cutting edge are not the best.
All synthetic oils do are provide better base oils. The molecules are synthetically grown to the same size, meaning that the oil is more Homogenous and suited to the application. The fact that you loose the odd wrong size chain in the oil means there is less friction and therefore less heat caused by the oil itself.
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