| Author |  Topic  |
GeoffC
V4 Mad
United Kingdom
507 Posts |  Posted - 04 Dec 2014 : 15:18:27  
| After complaints about the amount of oil my Sonett is depositing wherever it goes and stops, I am finally starting an engine re-build program. However due to budget issues this may take some time so don't hold your breath anyone!!
I acquired a sadly neglected mid '70's 1500 V4 engine sometime ago which looks as if it has spent most of it's time outside! Anyway I removed the flywheel a few weeks ago and cleaned it up ready for machining. I want it lightened but not quite as much as I did years ago with my rally car. The idea is to build a performance 1700 spec engine but still maintain flexibility for normal road use, i.e I don't want a tick over in excess of 1000 rpm.
A bit scabby but should clean up OK.
The engine is seized up due to the length of time standing so yesterday I removed the RH cylinder head. Not a pretty sight:
My idea was to machine these cyl heads and block and get it all ready with new pistons, bearings etc so that when I finally get to remove the front end of the Sonett and take the engine out, the off the road time will be limited. I will of course need the 1700 crank from Sonetts existing engine to complete the build which may or may not require a re-grind.
So having got one head off and seeing the state of the waterways and exhaust exit flange I'm wondering whether or not it has gone back to nature too much? I would obviously shot blast and clean out the waterways as much as possible and machine the head face and open out the combustion chambers, replace valve guides and seats etc - just wondered what anybody who may have done this on an old stored engine before thinks? I don't need to use this engine as I can re-furbish my original, but as I say I just wanted to minimise off the road time and it seemed like a good idea to get machining done a bit at a time as and when given the limited budget.
So what do you reckon worth cleaning up or scrap it? |
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Andyinthegarage
V4 Fanatic
United Kingdom
361 Posts | Posted - 04 Dec 2014 : 20:26:26
| Well I love a challenge as much as the next guy but you are going to spend a lot of time (and/or money) just getting this back to the sort of condition that it might have been taken from a runner...and that's before you start "improving".
My gut feel is that you should keep this for parts and get hold of one that you can at least be reasonably sure isn't cracked. There are plenty around.
You don't say where you obtained it...presumably it was being used as a boat anchor?  |  |
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melle
V4 Guru
United Kingdom
3833 Posts | Posted - 04 Dec 2014 : 20:42:41
| I don't see why this block shouldn't be usable if cleaned, rebored and machined. Stuff you want to do anyway for an engine rebuild! If you remove the core plugs and drains I'm sure a machine shop can get it clean enough in their caustic tank also on the inside.
1970 96V4 "The Devil's Own V4"
1977 95V4 van conversion project
1988 900i 8V | |
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GeoffC
V4 Mad
United Kingdom
507 Posts | Posted - 04 Dec 2014 : 22:56:00
| Love your comment re the boat anchor Andy 
I was given it fortunately, and as Melle says I was only ever intending to use the castings as I expected the internals to be knackered. I reckon they will clean up but have to admit the pitting on the heads is a bit much. | |
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Derek
V4 Guru
United Kingdom
2191 Posts | Posted - 05 Dec 2014 : 11:07:37
| I suspect that someone here will have a much better unknown condition lump for a modest fee that would at least spare you the trouble/frustration/grief etc of getting this one apart. IMO the amount of time and money you're going to spend on it doesn't need to include the hassle of finding out that there isn't much of this engine that's re usable. However, good luck with it if you proceed with this one.  It is a fairly drastic plan of action just to cure an oil leak............. | |
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GeoffC
V4 Mad
United Kingdom
507 Posts | Posted - 05 Dec 2014 : 12:06:14
| Well agreed Derek, if it was "just for an oil leak" - there are other things I hadn't mentioned!! The fact is that the existing engine has just cleared 105,000 miles, the sump is dented so the flanges aren't true and have always leaked a bit, but now the oil seals are going all round, clutch starting to slip etc and on top of that one cylinder is down on compression. Blow by is pretty bad too judging by the haze under the bonnet - so it's time for a re-build. It used 2 litres of oil to get from Warwick to Neo's open day - the only good thing being that the front end of the car and half way down underneath are well and truly rust proofed!!
Trouble is the car is performing better than it ever has, probably due to the lack of friction in the engine!!! So for that reason I'm keeping it going as long as possible hence my idea of using the castings in this salvaged engine (even if it looks as if it's been at the bottom of the sea!) for a re-bore and a chance to modify the heads which I wanted to do anyway.
Anyway I'll take the other head off strip the internals and then see what the block is like when cleaned a bit more. If both heads are too badly pitted then happy to use my existing ones. It's only the re-bore that requires professional services I'll do the rest myself. | |
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melle
V4 Guru
United Kingdom
3833 Posts | Posted - 05 Dec 2014 : 12:34:11
| quote:
Originally posted by GeoffC
Anyway I'll take the other head off strip the internals and then see what the block is like when cleaned a bit more.
That's exactly what I would do. Often first impressions count, but under rust and grime many lumps formerly used as boat anchors appear to provide a very solid basis for a second life as an internal combustion engine. In my experience Cologne V4 blocks and heads hardly ever crack and if they have been stored fully assembled all machined surfaces clean up with a very modest skim. The tricky bit is getting the exhaust studs out in one part for machining and replacement.
1970 96V4 "The Devil's Own V4"
1977 95V4 van conversion project
1988 900i 8V | |
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GeoffC
V4 Mad
United Kingdom
507 Posts | Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 16:44:37
| Bit of an update but I didn't get anything done over Xmas as I expected. Anyway took the front cover off and the timing gears are all in good condition, no play in the balance and camshaft bearings either although they will all be replaced.
Bit of a surprise when I turned it over to remove the sump, clearing all the crud off the bottom of the sump (probably where it had dragged over the sea bottom in it's role as an anchor!) I found a hole!
Not amused as the sump pan was the only other thing I wanted apart from the castings as my current one is so battered.
Anyway off came the sump to reveal this
A clean set of innards with no evidence of bearing wear - not what I was expecting!
The oil ponged a bit but it's done it's job and kept the bearing faces rust free. No grooving or noticeable wear on any of the shell bearings and the crank looks almost like new!
The big ends were also in good condition and the only problem I have is getting No 2 piston out, as that is well and truly seized. The others came out with a light tap once the crud on the head interface broke away to let them out. I have left it soaking so will have another go tomorrow, and I also need to push the cam followers out which are a bit stuck. I want to send the cam to Newmans as they are going to provide an exchange fast road cam.
The cylinder heads are also stripped, I got the exhaust bolts out, one had already sheared but left just enough to get a pair of stiltsons on it and with some heat and a long tube they are all out and in the bin. Always replace those with hex cap heads anyway.
Next thing is to bite the bullet and find out how much the machining is going to cost me - there may be another long pause in progress!!
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melle
V4 Guru
United Kingdom
3833 Posts | Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 18:21:08
| Good to see I wasn't too far off in my previous post!
1970 96V4 "The Devil's Own V4"
1977 95V4 van conversion project
1988 900i 8V | |
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GeoffC
V4 Mad
United Kingdom
507 Posts | Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 18:41:45
| | Yep Melle you were spot on amazed how clean and scratch free the shell bearings are. | |
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GeoffC
V4 Mad
United Kingdom
507 Posts | Posted - 30 Jan 2015 : 22:51:46
| | Still can't get this piston out any ideas? Thinking I'll have to drill out the crown and cut down one side! | |
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Derek
V4 Guru
United Kingdom
2191 Posts | Posted - 31 Jan 2015 : 12:35:22
| | Fill bore with as near to boiling as you dare, diesel oil, and leave to soak. Thumping a length of wood that fits the bore now and then, preferably round so it pressures the sides of the piston rather than the crown, might be persuasive. As a dry method you could try heating the piston with a blowlamp and then spraying it with plumbers freeze spray. That might crack the rusty rings off the bore. | |
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Woody
V4 Guru
United Kingdom
2764 Posts | Posted - 31 Jan 2015 : 12:54:46
| Your engine is comparable to one I had standing outside the back of my garage for a year or more. Covered over of course. It was guite clean when I stripped it but the sump was holed though it welded up.
I like to use Allen cap screws at the exhaust\cylinder head in stead of the studs. The exhaust ports / flanges could do with opening out to 44mm and have the flange face dressed.. Time consuming but probably worth the effort.
The combustion chambers will clean up. Would you keep the valves standard size?
Have another engine in similar state that has been waiting for rebuild since 1989. Retirement project?
Regarding the stuck piston - can you push it further down as far as it can go then clean the bore with a wire wheel? Oil and try to tap out? |
Edited by - Woody on 31 Jan 2015 12:59:27 | |
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GeoffC
V4 Mad
United Kingdom
507 Posts | Posted - 31 Jan 2015 : 14:03:50
| Thanks for the helpful suggestions. It's right at the bottom of it's stroke but I guess it will go a bit further. Been knocking it the other way but the gudgeon pin is damaged now so it's not giving up. I'll try the heating method as well so will have another go soon.
I'm definitely opening up the heads and ports Woody but am still undecided about valves. I only have a 28/36 weber so might need a bigger carb with the bigger valves? I have had my eye on those new 32/36 ones from Newport, good price but adds to the overall cost - still a bit at a time, I'm not in a rush. | |
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v4admin
Forum Admin
United Kingdom
521 Posts | Posted - 31 Jan 2015 : 17:52:15
| | Good to watch how you are getting on. I have started to remove my engine today as I need a new clutch, whilst it is out I will check it all over. Will keep you posted. | |
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pchristy
V4 Guru
United Kingdom
1790 Posts | Posted - 01 Feb 2015 : 16:30:23
| quote:
Originally posted by GeoffC
I only have a 28/36 weber so might need a bigger carb with the bigger valves?
I seem to recall Jack Ashcraft's high performance V4s (100BHP!) were running on 34ich carbs, so I would have thought a 28/36 more than adequate for most V4 applications. You might need to re-jet it though!
Just check it for air leaks - especially around the spindle bearings!
--
Pete
"Duct tape is like the Force: It has a light side and a dark side, and it binds the Universe together!" | |
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| Topic | |
Sonett engine rebuild
