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Zagato
V4 Mad

United Kingdom
744 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  07:44:35 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Mine has 26L on exactly the same place as John & Melles pic which unfortunately means that it is a number not related to cc size! This was why I was asking how a 1.7 engine would get into a standard car. Getting one from a Sonett is just so doubtful, ordering one specially from SAAB if it was not for rallying doubtful also as well as yanking one out from a Transit.




If Transits used to have them, that cannot be that rare. The 1.7 is so sought after, if they are valued surely it would,t be that hard to track down an old Tranny engine... Or maybe not!

Edited by - Zagato on 21 Feb 2017 07:56:14
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john-saab
Administrator

United Kingdom
2650 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  09:00:23 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Ok so my first job this morning was to check the engine code further and it's a humble EY code..so a 1500cc.
That makes the cars future much clearer..MOT then for sale.

'73 96 (Vernon),'74 95 (Veronica)plus 4 other 95's and 2 96's
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72sonett3
V4 Fanatic

Spain
203 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  12:17:16 Show Profile Reply with Quote
quote:
...If Transits used to have them, that cannot be that rare.
Not rare, but UK Transits had the Essex V4/V6, German Transits had Cologne 1.5 or 1.7 V4s, so to find a 1.7 V4 go to Germany... Or buy the crank and pistons separately at e.g. https://www.motomobil.com/kurbelwelle-v4-17l-ueberholt-inkl-lager,2669,8011810-5.html.

You can use Pinto pistons.


--
'72 97
'77 96L conv.
'79 96GL (LPG)
'83 900i (LPG)
'95 900SE conv.
'99 9-3T

Edited by - 72sonett3 on 21 Feb 2017 13:29:47
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Derek
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
1782 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  12:40:01 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Basic 1.7l not that much better anyway. Lower compression which is perhaps better with current fuel but the bhp is about the same and the small amount of extra torque isn't really that much of an advantage.
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
2283 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  12:55:52 Show Profile Visit melle's Homepage Reply with Quote
That's not true, 1.5HC and 1.7HC engines have the same compression ratios; 1.7 Sonetts have LC pistons which makes their output is equal to 1,5 HCs (you can replace the pistons with HC Pinto pistons). 1.7HC engines have noticeably more bottom torque, however, you can rev the tits off a 1.5 which is perhaps not advisable with the longer stroke 1.7 crank (crank more prone to breaking and higher piston speed = more wear to pistons, rings and bores).

www.saabv4.com
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Zagato
V4 Mad

United Kingdom
744 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  15:31:39 Show Profile Reply with Quote
A 1.7 in it,s day for rallying would have been important and for current day rallying but for road use I cannot see the hype making sense when you get so little gain and potential rough running engines. It,s like people spending fortunes on upgrading Defender engines, what's the point, get a Caterham or a motorbike if you want real speed.

I suppose there must still be enough people rallying 96's competitively to keep interest high as well as the fact that they are simply rare.


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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
2283 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  15:52:01 Show Profile Visit melle's Homepage Reply with Quote
A 1.7 engine is not necessarily "better" than a 1.5, it depends on your use and personal preference if it makes sense to fit a 1.7. I'm not interested in speed but in low rpm torque, I want to be able to tow a trailer for instance, that's why I prefer the 1.7. On the other hand, I would never spend money on "fast" cams or big valves, I never exceed 4000-4500rpm so I doubt I would ever notice the extra potential.

What makes you think 1.7s are more prone to running rough than 1.5s?

www.saabv4.com
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Zagato
V4 Mad

United Kingdom
744 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  16:18:58 Show Profile Reply with Quote
It,s more the bigger Webber carbs rather than the engine that people say makes em rougher to idle...


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GeoffC
V4 Fanatic

United Kingdom
332 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  16:35:39 Show Profile Reply with Quote
As melle says a 1.7 gives you loads more torque - I noticed a big difference between the 1.5 on all the 96's I have had and the 1.7 on the Sonett - much more pulling power and coupled with the higher ratio diff it works very well. However for rallying just going to 1700 and big valve heads is not so advisable due to, again as melle says, the increased linear speed of the piston with the long throw crank can quite easily cause a rod to break and go through the block at higher revs - don't ask me how I know!!!

IF I was lucky enough to be able to afford to go rallying again (the MSA have scuppered that with all their ridiculous rules on changing safety kit every 5 mins - neck braces, disposable roll cages (mine survived 7 rolls and it still saved my head!) and all the rest of the gabbage - rant over!!) I would go for a high reving 1500 which would be more competitive class wise and offer reliable revs in excess of 7000! 1700 or 1815 competition engines are all very well but for the man on a budget you could run a decent 1500 with big valve heads with very little to worry about in terms of reliability. I would also opt for the twin 40IDA webers one behind the other in the centre of the Vee which stops the enforced retirement when it rolls over and snaps the swan neck manifoilds off!!

So a nicely built 1700 for road use with a single twin choke weber and a well balanced high reving screamer for rallying is my desired receipe for V4's!
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Zagato
V4 Mad

United Kingdom
744 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  18:03:27 Show Profile Reply with Quote
If you wanted a 1.7 couldn't you just bore it out to that size or would you still need to get the crank shaft that Melle mentioned, does the Sonett have that crank. Sorry had a beer so I am trying to ask, Hic, is the sonnet engine the same as a 1.5 but just has bigger bores?

I mention this because when I said my Sonetts (given up on the spelling of sonet! "Get yourself a couple of bottles of 'Old Crafty Hen' wonderful stuff!) original 1.7 engine block was stored under a bench for 18 years I had a lot of interest from people wanting to buy it. Surely you could just bore a 1.5 out!



Edited by - Zagato on 21 Feb 2017 18:05:27
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
2283 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  18:14:25 Show Profile Visit melle's Homepage Reply with Quote
You could bore out a 1.5 indeed, but for better torque you want to increase the stroke, not the bore. Another issue when increasing the bore (this is how >1.7 engines are made) is that you weaken the block. The Sonett engine has a 1.7 crank, but LC pistons, so the power output is similar to the 1.5HC. With a set of Pinto HC pistons you can transform it into a proper engine. ;)

Cheers!

www.saabv4.com
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GeoffC
V4 Fanatic

United Kingdom
332 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  18:29:57 Show Profile Reply with Quote
The std 1.7 is just the longer crank as melle says. It's the increased inertia force on the con rod that breaks them and if you bore it out although to some extent you have taken it more back towards a "square" engine you may well have increased piston weight as well which adds to the inertia load hence the tensile forces along the con rod. All the failures I have seen on a friends 1815 have been rods through the side of the block - not a pretty sight. As mentioned I bought a used competition 1700 engine once (took me 2 years to save up for it) and the engine tuners blew it up on the rolling road. My loss! I kept to 1500 with big valves heads after that, even saw 8000 rpm on a rally once scrabbling for 2nd on a hairpin but never had an engine failure over many years of rallying = still on fibre gears as well!!! For road use and keeping the revs below 6000 I'm sure they are OK but would always worry about reliability for rallying.
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Zagato
V4 Mad

United Kingdom
744 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  20:31:30 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Clear now, thanks for that...


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Derek
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
1782 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  23:48:43 Show Profile Reply with Quote
"That's not true, 1.5HC and 1.7HC engines have the same compression ratios
Melle. Which cars had the 1.7HC as standard?
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john wyatt
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
1030 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  23:54:15 Show Profile Reply with Quote
A good 1.7 is a thing of wonder, my 1740 would pull nicely in top from 20mph, I think you'd have te doing Motorsport or driving like a tit to break one
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