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James Ranaldi
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
1472 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2020 :  21:55:48 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Very interesting, I am fascinated by this technical stuff.

1968 V4 96 ,LHD
1984 99 GL
1992 C900i Convertible
1993 C900 LPT Convertible
1987 C900 2 Door
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
3390 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2020 :  17:27:02 Show Profile Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AnttiK
I have cut the aluminium "cup" away from the V4 distributor, cut the rotating part smaller that it will fit inside the 38mm steel pipe. And this steel pipe is connected with self made clamp to the distributor stem. And I have made also small bracket for fasten the VR sensor to tube. cam sensor needs only one tooth to indicate which one of the engine cycle is ongoing, so the structure is quite simple.
I can picture what you did, sounds like a good solution. I didn't know the cam sensor only needs one tooth. I image it would also be easy enough to use a VAG hall ignition sensor of the type I currently use for my ignition with a modified shutter wheel in the standard V4 distributor. Must be very strange to see a running engine without plug leads on the dizzy!

My ECU supports both VR and Hall sensors (crank + cam), and sequential injection up to four cylinders (or in batches of two or three), but I'm happy enough if I ever get it running as batch injection system.

www.saabv4.com
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Borstlap
V4 Fanatic

Norway
303 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2020 :  16:40:33 Show Profile Reply with Quote
quote:
Must be very strange to see a running engine without plug leads on the dizzy!


Nah, you get used to it pretty quickly:

https://youtu.be/4SBydd6LKQg

Alex
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
3390 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2020 :  17:20:23 Show Profile Reply with Quote
The effect is less dramatic than with the dizzy still in place I think, but cool nonetheless Alex!

www.saabv4.com
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AnttiK
V4 Beginner

Finland
68 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  19:57:01 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Now the inlet manifold is a little bit modified and painted. Also I have made stainless steel piping and enclosure for the air filter. I can see from the megasquirt log that the intake air temperature is now lower than before. Also there was some oil in the inlet so I added air compressor water separator as oil separator and little bit suppressed the pcv vacuum line. Need to find more sophisticated solution for the oil separator later on.



In the beginning with this plenum type manifold I tested lower ignition advance values in 1500-3500rpm range at the same time when installing new manifold. Now I have changed those back to advances close to standard V4 advance values except at idle because of 7.2 camshaft. Now there is clearly more torque in the low rpm range and the engine behaviour is much smoother now when compared to stock manifold with injectors.

The fuel values in VE table are about 10-20% smaller than before and VE table is clearly smoother/more uniform than before. Probably some of this improvement is because of new manifold and some because of I replaced the old Bosch EV6 156cc injectors with new Bosch EV14 151cc injectors.



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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
3390 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2020 :  10:17:09 Show Profile Reply with Quote
That looks brilliant Antti, love it! You're not the first one to use an oil separator from an air compressor, and they work fine, if maybe the reservoir is a bit small. It is certainly a good idea to introduce an oil trap anyway. I made an oil catch can from a BMW X5 power steering fluid reservoir (see my 96 thread), and after seeing how much oil it caught I've bought a "proper" catch can that I'll replace it with.

Can you post a side view photo of the top of the engine/ plenum? Curious to see how much it sticks out on top and to the front. I think my V6 plenum has pretty similar dimensions. What type of intake air temperature sensor are you using? I'm not sure how they work, and if I can just use any cheap OEM one from eBay?

I've done a few things on my projects too, will report in due time. I'm a bit stuck with the K-Jet engine at the moment because I struggle to find a few components that I need to complete the design of two adapters. I can borrow a warm up regulator from my 900, but I also need a specific VW Corrado 5th injector adapter that appears to be hard to find these days. I'm planning to go to NL by the end of the year, if I haven't found it by then I'll bring one from my workshop. I'm in no rush fortunately and there are plenty other things to do. I'm planning to locate the K-Jet fuel distributor where your air intake sits; looking at your engine bay I think (hope!) that it'll all fit snugly but nicely.

www.saabv4.com
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AnttiK
V4 Beginner

Finland
68 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2020 :  19:34:30 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Thanks Melle! Here are two pictures of the manifold in the front area. The top of the Ford Focus radiator in my car is in a lower level than standard radiator and therefore there is more room for intake hose.





At the moment I use the intake air temperature sensor removed from Peugeot 206 throttle body, which I used with stock manifold and now I have installed the sensor to steel intake pipe. Intake sensor is NTC-resistor and the temperature coefficients can be set to megasquirt and most likely to speeduino as well. And the coolant temperature sensor is NTC sensor as well. So the OEM sensor from the ebay will probably work and usually temperature coefficients can be found from the internet or those can be measured as well.
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James Ranaldi
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
1472 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2020 :  20:18:54 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Great stuff, looking good.


1968 V4 96 ,LHD
1984 99 GL
1992 C900i Convertible
1993 C900 LPT Convertible
1987 C900 2 Door
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
3390 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2020 :  20:55:32 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Thanks for the pics Antti, quite reassuring to see how much taller the plenum is than the rocker covers. Corona permitting I'll be going to NL in December; I'll bring my manifolds and then I can hopefully do a mock-up in the 95. I have been wrong before when it comes to guessing how well things might fit, so wish me luck!

www.saabv4.com
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
3390 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2020 :  16:57:46 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Things are coming together really nicely on both my injection conversion projects. I hope I can travel to NL next month, and try both manifolds on an engine. I have a complete engine bay section off a Saab 95 in my workshop, that I plan to set up as a rig for these projects, so I can try a bonnet on as well. I'm a little nervous things will be too high, or too far forward on the EFI manifold, so that's why I want to do a trial fit first before committing to welding or spending money on having adapters CNC milled. I have a few different radiators and fans to play with too.



EFI V4

I had a new adapter 3D-printed, and it fits a treat. I found a Corrado rubber boot for the TB and a cheap incomplete intercooler pipe kit, which is a bit thinner wall than I originally had in mind, but should work fine as air intake ducting. There's quite a few different bends left in the kit, so there should be enough to make something out of for the K-Jet engine too.




I've also done a lot of hacksawing. I removed the rear runners from the plenum, and sawed it open along the original mould parting line, so I can remove the internal baffle. When that's done it can be welded shut again and when the welds are ground back, it should be almost invisible that it's ever been opened. I'll mill the former runner boss flat and weld a piece of plate on/ in it, should not be a very visible modification either as it's on the bottom of the plenum.




I think I can make shortening the V6 manifold work by removing either the rear or the middle runners. Both options have pros and cons, so I decided to try both and see what works best. I've hacked off the rear runner boss off one, and the middle boss off another V6 manifold in preparation for cutting. With these bosses out of the way it's easier to measure, and there's now ample room for my chop saw too. I know some people will be questioning my sanity or find it a waste to be cutting up two manifolds, but sometimes sacrifices have to be made to arrive at the best result! (And a manifold is still much cheaper than the holiday I haven't had this year!)





K-Jetronic V4

I redesigned the TB adapter a few times and my friend printed a few more prototypes for me. I kept struggling to get the air pipe to the 5th injector fitted in a visually acceptable way, until I noticed that some 16V Corrados have a cold start injector on a small adapter that I could potentially use. I bought one and modified that (replaced the pipe with NPT threads and an elbow fitting, and removed excess material) so it would work with my TB adapter. I think it all fits very nicely now.




Then I needed a warm up regulator (WUR) and an auxiliary air valve (AAV), which were surprisingly difficult to find. Eventually found them and set to start designing a heated adapter for those and the thermostat housing. I was initially going to mount a heated plate on the inner wing, for which I planned to use the hoses that normally run to and from the autochoke. However, I thought a little more effort might yield a much more pleasing result, and I think I was right.




I made a few small changes on the next iteration, below is what I finally went with. You can see how the internal water pipes work, and how I've re-oriented the thermostat housing:




Then my poor drill did its best impression of a Bridgeport again, built a proper jig this time instead of clamping the manifold to the "bench" (I was working in the kitchen again). Still not overly rigid, but it worked alright.





All together now:







I had to remove the boss for the throttle rod because that's where the cyl 4 injector sits now. I'll add a new one right in front or behind the injector, and modify the throttle rod assembly. The throttle lever on the Porsche 924 TB will be replaced with one from a Solex 32TDID carb.




Very tight fit, but there should be just enough space for the fuel hose nuts:



The bosses are not the final ones; I'll finetune the lengths and machine the actual ones on the lathe. When I'm in the workshop I'll mock up the parts in the engine bay and fit a fuel distributor as well. If it all fits, I'll have fuel hoses made and the adapters machined in aluminium. I was planning to have the injector bosses TIG welded by a mate, but since I have two practice manifolds (thanks Gareth and Roger!) and plenty of aluminium pipe, and I'm set up for MIG welding aluminium, I may try that myself first.

And this is what it will roughly look like with a Porsche 924 intake boot, Corrado pipe and a piece of the aforementioned aluminium intercooler pipe:




The hose that goes into the oil filler hole in the o/s rocker cover is for the PCV system and will be connected to the filler cap. I will add a second filler cap to the n/s rocker cover to use as the actual filler cap, this is also what I currently have in my 96 and it works a treat.

I'm very pleased so far and I'm looking forward to trying it on an actual engine in an actual engine bay soon, so please everyone stick to the social distancing rules and keep washing your hands so I can travel next month!


www.saabv4.com

Edited by - melle on 27 Nov 2020 16:59:21
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UK_Sub
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
2322 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2020 :  19:23:37 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Have you seen this setup (sorry if this is a hijack), but it looks similar to what you're doing and the exhaust exit is worth a look too!

https://www.facebook.com/TTK77/videos/10158993373413151/?
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
3390 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2020 :  19:49:58 Show Profile Reply with Quote
He uses a turbo, which I'm not planning to do for these builds. I can't expand the video because I don't have a Facebook account, so can't study his set-up in detail (it doesn't help that most of the time the wings are in frame instead of the engine!).

www.saabv4.com
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James Ranaldi
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
1472 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2020 :  09:01:07 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Genius Melle. Can't wait to see this one fired up.

1968 V4 96 ,LHD
1984 99 GL
1987 C900SC 2door
1993 C900 LPT Convertible
1987 C900 2 Door
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Dirtbiker
V4 Mad

United Kingdom
874 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2020 :  12:07:37 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Coming on really nicely!
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Woody
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
2542 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2020 :  12:57:25 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Very inventive, way over my head !
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